The Writer of “Better Call Saul” on Finally Entering into the “Breaking Bad” Era

This story contains Spoilers for this week’s episode of Better Call SaulWe also have an article on, which we summarize here.

After Better Call Saul Co-creators Vince Gilligan, Peter Gould and Thomas Schnauz, Thomas Schnauz, is the longest-tenured writer of the Heisenberg-verse. He was born in Season Three Breaking Bad He stayed through the final episode of the prequel series. And in a way, his involvement goes back even further, as he was the one who told Gilligan about an article he’d recently read about mobile meth labs, which got his old friend’s mental gears turning.

Now Schnauz’s tenure as both writer and director ends with the full-circle episode that is, appropriately, titled “Breaking Bad,” because it presents flashbacks where we see Saul Goodman’s first meeting with Walter White and Jesse Pinkman (Bryan Cranston and Aaron Paul, reprising their iconic roles) from Saul’s perspective.

Schnauz spoke to Rolling Stone After being unsure if Gilligan would direct Cranston or Paul again, it was a lucky chance that Cranston and Paul got the opportunity to be directed again. That is why the writers felt it was important for the Walt and Jesse scenes to provide contrast to the activities of Saul under his new identity, Gene from Cinnabon.

It was finally possible to bring Walt and Jesse on this show. This idea was discussed many times over the years. It was put off in the hopes that you would make a decision at the end. Was there ever a thought that you just wouldn’t do it?
We knew they would be back some day, and that was something we believed. We just didn’t know when or how. We started to discuss this episode, in which Gene was returning back to his old ways. And we’re seeing what influenced him to become Saul, which was the Kim breakup and her not telling him about Lalo being alive for the reasons that she did — it really crushed the man who Jimmy McGill was. After that phone call he has at the side of the road in this episode, when he calls Florida trying to reach Kim Wexler, we don’t hear what happens on that call, but something on it brings back all the pain from the past, and his need to cover it up again. So his drug of choice is Saul Goodman, and that’s the best way to heal himself. That’s why we felt it was a good spot to flash back and forth between the two eras. And it helps pay some things off that you’ll see in the upcoming episodes.

Peter referred to Peter’s idea of showing events on Breaking Bad from Saul’s perspective as “running through the raindrops,” and he told me once he wasn’t sure it was a good idea. Were there ever points where he or someone else in the room argued that you shouldn’t do this?
Since Season One, I have been a strong proponent. “Let’s run through the raindrops.”I wanted to mix up the timelines heavily. I don’t think anybody said, “No, let’s not do this.”As the final season approached, I believe we all felt like that. “Well, are we going to do this or not?”We only wanted to do it if it worked. It worked here. We were even talking about it in 610 [the previous episode], but it felt like we didn’t have enough of Gene at that point to really say it works to bounce back and forth between the two timelines. To get Jeff off his back, he did the scam in 610, and then he felt the rush of adrenaline or whatever drug that helped him to cover up the pain. But then he made that phone call, the pain came back, and huge, he smashes the phone, he kicks the glass, and he’s hurting and he needs to take that drug. He slips back into the drug.

Was it possible to see Aaron and Bryan reprise their roles? El Camino — in a scene set not long after what they’re playing here — give you more confidence that they could just do it again if you brought them back?
I didn’t really know how it was going to turn out. Before we could shoot 611, I had to write the scene. This scene was filmed during 602 because Bryan and Aaron were unavailable. Aaron had to adhere to certain facial hair rules. Westworld. We could only do it in April 2021. So I had to write the scene — and luckily it was self-contained — so that even if things changed in 611, we weren’t going to be screwed if we filmed this so early. This photo was taken in my hotel room by me of Bryan and Aaron wearing ski masks and acting silly. It was amazing. The day before we had a rehearsal and everyone was locked in. We then set up the RV and got it running. It was a mad rush. It was incredible to be there and shoot with the guys in that situation. I can’t say enough about the job they did getting into those roles. Bob in particular. Bob is so unlike Jimmy in this scene that you can see he is full Saul Goodman. It’s such a different character than Jimmy McGill.

Aaron is now a man. He doesn’t look as boyish now than he did when he was younger. Breaking Bad. And I couldn’t help noticing that the scene takes place in a lot of darkness, and he has a beanie on the whole time. Did he do this to cover his age?
Yeah. Yes. Better Call Saul Breaking BadIt is a constant thing. Everybody — Giancarlo and Banks — is older. You need to be on the lookout Better Call SaulYou think? “Oh, Banks kind of looks the same,”However, if you put it against a scene Breaking BadThe difference is enormous. It’s going to be the same with Saul Breaking BadAaron will be there. Bryan looked amazing, but the beanies certainly helped. It was only to avoid lots of problems. It helped to create an illusion by having the beanie around. People will still say it, I’m sure. “Oh, he doesn’t look like a skinny kid,” but you either go with it or you don’t.

Production had to decide if they wanted to keep the RV interior for so many years or if they needed to make a new one.
The sucker was completely built. Airbags were used to lift the sucker off the ground and move it around.

The Saul/Francesca Flash-forward “Quite a Ride”The idea was that she would need to be at a Pay Phone on a certain date and hour. Do you know the details?
Not only did I not know what the call was going to be about, I didn’t even know at first that it would be in the episode, because it was added after we broke the episode in the writers room. Ann and Peter [Cherkis]This was written after the season ended. We needed something. I don’t know what they were thinking! It was the first thing I saw. “What the hell is this?” Gordon [Smith]The joke was that I was against it all, but somehow it landed in mine and I had to address the issue.

Gordon spoke of a flag earlier in the series, which he mentioned to me when I interviewed him a few months ago. It would need to be addressed. This was it?
Yes, it was that flag we planted. I mean, it’s no gun in the trunk of a car. It’s easier to answer. It’s easy to imagine Gene calling Francesca in Omaha. We discussed Gene’s activities and why he should talk to her. Obviously, he’d want to know how hot things are, where things stood in Albuquerque. “Is the heat off? Can I relax a little bit?”Gene lives a life full of fear because Gene fears being recognized. We talked about the things he would love to hear from Francesca.

This call allows you to close some deals. Breaking Bad Skyler was able to make a deal with the prosecutors. This was important to you.
There wasn’t a lot of importance to it. It was just a thought that Francesca might have about ending things, and where everyone stood.

You answered a question that was still raging Breaking Bad Huell was at the end: Will he just live in that DEA safehouse for the rest his life?
I hated the idea of breaking this illusion. I wanted to try and keep that going. We had to deal with that. Jimmy is friends with Huell. They were quite close, as it turned out. He felt it was vital to ask Huell how he was. Kuby, we wanted him for an episode of Season Five. [Bill Burr] wasn’t available, that’s why we went back to Steven Ogg. He also mentions Danny. We made Pryce’s real name Daniel Wormald, and my dream was always to bring Pryce back and have him be the guy who runs the Laser Tag place as Danny. It just didn’t work out that way. But when Gene mentions Danny here, that’s who he’s referring to.

Why is Mike doing investigation work on behalf of Saul Goodman while he has a very lucrative job at the Gus Fring organisation?
I think because Saul Goodman is a player in town, who’s got his finger on the pulse of a lot of things that are going on. It’s an information conduit for Gus Fring. If Mike is close to Saul, it’s a way of gathering information. It’s also a pretty good cover job, apart from the Fring organization. Mike will find it useful in two ways.

There are moments to cherish Breaking Bad where Saul seems oblivious to Mike’s true loyalties, and other ones — like Mike threatens MikeIn “Full Measure” — where it seems clear he knows who Mike’s real boss is. What was your conversation about their relationship over the years while you were making this episode?
We had the task of going back to rewatch certain scenes to see what was said. You know, there is no way to be perfect. Breaking BadIt was not known that there would be a prequel that would feature all these characters. So hopefully it doesn’t feel like we are twisting and turning to make things right. We tried to keep an eye on all the action. Breaking Bad To make sure it felt like a natural progression from A to B. Sometimes, we’re bending a little, but hopefully, it doesn’t break.

Mike seems to be dismissive of Walt’s question about him when Saul questions him about him. We know that Gus was interested in the blue meth when Gale informed him about it. Is Mike unaware that Gus is interested? Or is he playing Saul?
I think Mike’s recommendation to Gus would be “Don’t get involved with this guy.” The investigating is done, and he knows Walt’s small potatoes, he doesn’t know what he’s doing, and he’s going to get caught or killed. And it’s just through a lot of dumb luck, or Walt’s ingenuity when they get themselves out of situations throughout the years. Both Walt and Jesse should have been arrested multiple times and taken to jail. They managed to make it through. Gus wasn’t going to have anything to do with Walter White, but it was Gale’s fawning over how great this meth was. It spoke to Gus’ strive for quality in all things, from chicken to the drug business.

After Kim left Jimmy, we were able to get the final cut to Saul Goodman. It felt like that was the end of six seasons worth of stories you had been telling. In these last two episodes, the title rubric has changed from earlier in the season — no more “this and that”-style episode names — the opening title sequence is changing, and the cast credits now only feature the actors in the episode. Do you guys consider these four episodes almost an entirely different show?
Those decisions about who got credited, what the credits would look like — that all came much later, after shooting. We wanted to end 609 with these episodes. 2001The moment when the caveman throws a bone in the air and it becomes a spaceship. Jimmy McGill is actually hit by a truck at 609 and we’re in the future. He’s Saul Goodman. It was something we discussed for a while. I think it was very successful. Also, we teased Gene in all these teasers at the start of each season, and I think it would have been weirder if we just did another teaser at the start of Season Six, and that’s the end of Gene. What’s the emotional wrap-up of Jimmy McGill going through all these changes? Gene was only temporary “I’m in hiding” moment, but he couldn’t suppress it. He never had to deal with the death of his brother and the grief of Kim’s loss. He didn’t deal with any of it. When Chuck died, Howard went through the steps of healing himself, he took the blame for it, he went to therapy, and did all the steps that Jimmy should have done, so all these deep things he’s pushed down will rise to the surface. We are interested in how that ends. That’s where we’re heading in the final episodes.

That 2001 Great cut. There was some discussion about whether we wanted to show more of Jimmy’s gradual transformation into Saul? To see more of him setting up his business in the same way that we see it. Breaking Bad?
We were part of a group that believed he would be Saul Goodman at Season One’s end. We were at so many different points. “Is he Saul Goodman now?” “Not quite.”It was almost as if we had reached the end of the line by losing Kim, the way it all ended, and that was the point. I don’t think we had anything to gain from seeing any more steps.

Something we talked about is that when he’s really, really, full Saul Goodman is the point when he decides it’s OK to kill somebody. I was the host of my first episode. Breaking Bad, “One Minute,”They discuss Jesse and what to do. He says that there are many options. “options.” That’s a much different character from Jimmy and from early Saul. There were some steps that happened that got him to that point that we’re not seeing. These were the things we discussed. “Should we see a moment where he feels like somebody needs to die?” We talked about there being a situation where there’s some case — I think they did this on The Good Wife — where Saul is saying something to Mike, “Well, if this guy is gone, it would be really helpful,”Mike says it all “You want this to happen?” It was one of those scenes we pitched but didn’t do.

Kim Wexler’s last appearance on the show is when she walks into her bedroom to continue packing her stuff. Did that even get considered?
I think people know that there’s no way to get to the end of the series without talking about her fate and what has happened to her. We wanted to keep the mystery alive for a bit longer. So that’s why we don’t hear, we just know it’s something very upsetting on that phone call. We just don’t know what yet. Things will be clearer in the near future, I believe. Lalo’s disappearance was similar. It was as follows: “What the hell happened? When is he coming back?” I feel like that’s some of the same thinking that went into Kim. She is gone, and we want our audience to wonder why.

Finally, you’ve been writing for this franchise longer than anyone but Vince and Peter. Is it possible that your last episode was not written or directed in part by any of them?
Episode slots are not an accident. They are chosen very early. We don’t know what will happen in them. The midseason finale was what I ended up getting. It wasn’t an accident. We planned on airing 13 episodes in a row, and because of the Covid restrictions and Bob’s health, we ended up dividing the season in two. It just so happened that there was something quite dramatic that happened in the last episode so it could be a midseason finale. But me being third from last last and Vince and Peter going to the finale, that’s not random.

However, you were fortunate to be able to direct Bryan and Aaron.
Once we were saying it, “Yeah, they’re coming back,” I thought for sure it was going to land in 612 — that was Vince’s episode. We break these things organically. It just felt like once we started talking about Gene’s story, this felt like the right time now to see these guys. Peter and Vince agreed that this was the right time. I felt like it should have been Vince’s episode, but just because of the way the story broke, it fell on me.