How can you adapt what isn’t possible? Neil Gaiman’s beloved fantasy comic book The Sandman centers around Dream, a godlike embodiment of humankind’s collective unconscious who looks like he might also sing in a Cure cover band. Its cerebral stories jump between eras, settings, including many pit stops in the actual depths hell. And it rarely indulges in any sort of superheroic action. There have been many attempts to make a movie of the comic-book series, which ran from 1989 through 1996. The Sandman has finally found a form more conducive to its structure: It is now a Netflix series, complete with Gaiman’s involvement and blessing. Showrunner Allan Heinberg — who executive-produced alongside Gaiman and David S. Goyer, and whose credits range from the Wonder Woman movie to The O.C. — broke down the process behind the show and much more. (Some mild Spoilers follow.)
It was evident that there were many attempts at adapting. SandmanSince the 1990s. David S. Goyer was one of your co-producers. This movie adaptation then evolved into this streaming series. What was your first encounter with the project?
I arrived a little later. The movie was made with Joe Gordon Levitt, who was going to direct it. [villain]The Corinthian. It began with [screenwriter]Jack Thorne. Jack Thorne then left, and Eric Heiser was hired to write. ArrivalAnd is the showrunner Shadow and Bone. He brought a few drafts of the Joe Gordon Levitt article. Eric, I believe, has stated that he wrote a note in his last draft of the Joe Gordon Levitt piece. “This is impossible to do in two hours. It needs to be a series.”Joe Gordon Levitt was forced to leave after the film fell apart. David, who was producing the movie thought streaming was the right way to go and went to Warner Bros. TV. “We need to bring Neil Gaiman on as an executive producer.”Neil had never been added to any of the earlier versions. SandmanFor over 34 years.
Inadvertently, I was involved. My ABC Studios deal was expiring, and I was meeting with Warner’s. They said this at the end of our meeting. “Are there any DC properties that you would be interested in developing?”And I said: “Well, I’m gonna just ask you the same question I’ve been asking you guys for 25 years, which is: ‘What are you doing with Sandman?’”They looked at one another. “How well do you know David Goyer?”I said, “David and I have been friends for years.”They said: “Well, we’re taking it to streamers in two weeks. But we don’t have a writer. And we don’t have a showrunner.”We just kind of looked at one another. I was walking to my car when my phone rang. David Goyer said it. “Are you fucking kidding me? When is your ABC deal done?”I said, “Tomorrow at midnight,”He added, “You’re fucking doing this.”That was it. The pieces fell into place just at the right time.
This was the first time you had to adapt something that was not easily adaptable. When you started to make this work, what were your biggest obstacles?
Now, my biggest concern was The Doll’s House [the story arc that became the second half of Season One]. Because I knew we would have to sell it as a serialized drama about Dream of the Endless’ extended family and make it a romance drama. If we leaned to much on the fantasy elements, the VFX and CGI of it, it would be lost its humanity. David and me were on the exact same page regarding this. And if you’ve read the books, Dream is really not in The Doll’s House. The challenge was charting it as Dream’s season, as Dream’s arc. Using as many anthology elements of the book as we could, but making it a serialized drama about what’s going to happen to Dream next.
Ironically, the more anthologized structure works better than pre-streaming TV. There are still elements of that throwback anthologized feeling at the end show..
Yeah. The most important aspect of streaming is: How can you get the viewer not to press the next episode’s button? It’s harder when you’ve got these one-and-done episodes where everything ends neatly. So we had to create a cliffhanger to Dream at the end each episode to get people to click that button. So we’re trying to have the best of both worlds. This was actually a blessing in disguise, as we were able more time with Dream. We were able also to get into his heads more and read those stories. [Vivienne Acheampong]It is the emotional core of the entire season.
Neil is well-known for expecting very literal and direct adaptations to his work. He clashed famously with the American GodsThat is the responsibility of showrunners. It was your job to make sure that it was broadcast on TV. Follow your instincts. So how did those two things work together, especially when you were working directly with Neil?
I was nervous about it going in, knowing that we would be in conflict. He had just come off the sand. Good OmensHe was also the showrunner, so he was well aware of the difficulties we faced. So I don’t remember a single instance where I pitched an adaptation choice that veered away from the books, where he was opposed to it. It was always a “yes.” It was a blessing and a surprise. We would talk almost every day. I would tell you, “Here’s what happened in the writers room. Here are my outstanding questions.”The most significant changes were made to the Lyta, Hector, and Jed sections of The Doll’s HouseThese characters all have deep roots in DC Comics mythology.
That was actually originally a reference to a comic book called Infinity, Inc. about the children of 1940s superheroes — not exactly something you could carry into this show.
Yeah, we weren’t taking any of that with us. It all had to be rethought. But then rooted in my deep love of DC Comics history, and Neil’s deep love of DC Comics history. And so what’s essential, and what do you change? Neil was adamant about that and supported the idea of bringing these characters Brute & Glob from the 1970s version of The Wizard of Oz. Sandman and we made Gault, this entirely new character, with the intention of breaking people’s hearts. Both of us thought about it. Sandman We loved it the same, and in the same manner. It was something I wanted to keep. Therefore, any changes I suggested to him were rooted deeply in love.
You changed John Constantine — the same character played by Keanu Reeves in 2005’s Constantine — to Johanna Constantine in this show, played by Jenna Coleman. But ironically, the episode you did with her felt like the best adaptation ever of the John Constantine Hellblazer Comic books.
We are so grateful. We were able the tell the origin story of John Constantine. [an exorcism gone wrong]Newcastle That’s all stuff that [original Hellblazer comic-book writer]Jamie Delano contributed the comic. Even though the character may not be the same, I feel like we kept the book’s spirit in mind. We had the entire episode in the first iterations. Hellblazer supporting cast — Chas and Renee were both in it, gender-swapped, like so. It was a lot of fun, and Jenna is amazing in it. We were all left wanting more from Lady Johanna Constantine as well as contemporary Johanna Constantine.
One of the challenges in the narrative, if you’re following the book, is to start with your lead character speechless and trapped in a bubble for quite some time. It’s a very unconventional way to introduce a lead character. Did there ever seem to be any talk about not starting chronologically? Or at a different place, so that Dream can be introduced more traditionally?
Not at first. We believed the comic book would work in this manner. We knew that the comic book would work this way because people were going to wait and watch to see how faithful they were. There was always talk about. “Is there a prologue? Do we let them fall in love with Dream early on before he’s in prison?” We’ve been working on this for three years. Over time, that would change as we tried different things. This initial tour of Dreaming was a way to get a feel for the forces being held captive. David Goyer [also]The suggestion was to bring the Corinthian onto stage right away. It was already pitched the first day. We came up with this prologue, even though it was a lot of work.
To have Dream, a.k.a. Morpheus — a sort of stoic, godlike lead character — at the center of a story is a challenge in itself. It’s sort of similar to how colorful villains tend to be in danger of stealing the spotlight away in Batman movies. It is true that secondary characters in this series are amazing. How did that all come about?
As we all knew, we were going tell Morpheus a story in serialized drama. So everything had to be through Morpheus’ point of view. To achieve that, it required that we as writers understand Dream’s psychology at all times, and that’s something that in the comics did not happen very often. Because we wanted to show more than tell, we decided that Dream would not be narrated. But it’s in every action line of every script — Dream is thinking and feeling this. So that there’s an enormous amount going on internally for Dream, even if he’s not revealing his feelings through dialogue. He is through his behavior, or what he’s choosing not to say. From his first self-tape, Tom Sturridge showed us this. We saw him as the only one who could not only understand the language but also gave us an understanding of the inner stuff. Tom intuitively understood that Dream presents in a detached manner because he contains the whole human unconscious. And I think he’s riveting. That would be the case in any other version. SandmanDavid Thewlis [as villain John Dee]Without a doubt, I would have gone home with the first five episodes. This performance is incredible. We had Tom to help us cast around in a way that elevated the entire enterprise.
Kirby Howell-Baptiste is getting a lot of praise for her portrayal of the series’ counterintuitively warm and compassionate take on Death. I’m sure you saw many people for this role.
We did. There were many wonderful people there who would have made a great team. Kirby was everything. It was the glass slipper. Kirby felt immediately at ease. Her energy is so different from Tom’s, and their chemistry was instantaneous. It was a big sister-little brother relationship. Kirby was like that from the very first moment she met her. “Right, shall we get into it? Shall we read the scenes?”It was a pleasure to watch Neil and Kirby play Death. It was beautiful.
This allowed you to unlock the Wonder Woman mythology and story. Many people thought it was impossible. What did you use from the toolkit from this particular adaptation?
The tool kit is the same one I’ve been using on every show. I write romance-comic drama. I love to write about relationships. I approach everything emotionally. I meant that I saw Wonder Woman as a drama between a mother, daughter, and then between Diana, Steve, and their relationship. That’s just the way my brain works. It’s the same in terms of Sandman. Dream is plagued by the relationship mistakes he’s made over millennia. And that’s a lot of what fuels the drama as we move forward. It’s his development as a man and as a romantic partner and as a dad, that’s what we’re charting over the course of these all of these different storylines. This was my lens.
I realize it’s not greenlit yet, but what’s the status of Season Two?
Well, we had a writer’s room for 20 weeks to talk about Season Two and to break stories and generate outlines and first drafts. And now I’m having early talks with production design and VFX and getting everything into position, so that if we are lucky enough to have a Season Two, we’re ready to go, ideally with the same team who made Season One.
Is it possible to keep the ideas in the same order as the comics?
We are mainly taking a lot of standalone stories out of there, but not necessarily where they are in comics, and incorporating them into the main story. One good example is [the African myth-inspired comic-book story] Tales In the SandThis happens very early in the beginning of The Doll’s HouseComics version of the saga That would be part our Season of Mistsstoryline in Season Two. Dream must return to hell in order for him to be free [his ancient love-interest]Nada was a natural place for them to share their backstory, find out what happened between them, and even how Nada ended her life in hell. So that’s a good example of a story that’s now woven into the main fabric of Season Two.
Over the years, the tone of comics changes and shifts from horror to dark fantasy. How can you adapt to this change?
After having read everything, The Sandman and knowing where it goes has really influenced how we’ve shaped Season One. Knowing where we’re heading at the beginning of the story really helps you set a tone that can accommodate where you end up. I don’t think it ever gets as dark as [“24-7,” the show’s 5th episode] Again, the body-horror elements of that were dealt with in a similar manner. But I do believe that Season One’s tone was definitely influenced by where. Sandman ends.
How many seasons is it going to take to tell the story through the comic books?
We could talk about doing everything in the name of success. If we’re able to do more standalone anthology issues, then it would take longer than if we were just staying on Dream’s track. And we’d love to do more Johanna Constantine in the present. The Corinthian could return, because he’s not really in the comic again – except for one cameo – until later. It all depends on how people respond, how many viewers we have, and how successful we are as a Season One program. If we had enough viewers, it could go on for a while.
And finally, as a comic-book writer, you co-created characters like Hawkeye’s protégé Kate Bishop and the superhero versions of Wanda Maximoff’s kids. What’s it like to see your Young Avengers characters start to appear in the MCU?
It’s been really touching and extraordinary. I’m not involved in it. Marvel is very secretive, and I don’t know what’s happening at any given point. But I’m always surprised and delighted to see these characters turn up in their various incarnations. Writing the Young Avengers book and co-creating it was an amazing experience for me. I don’t know that I’d be writing Sandman in the same way if I hadn’t spent that time writing Young Avengers. So I wish the characters could cross over and live long and healthy cinematic careers. And I’ll be in the audience cheering them on as they do, if they do.