Vince Gilligan, ‘Better Call Saul’ Co-Creator, on the End of Series

Vince Gilligan will be the first to tell you he’s a bad planner. It’s not just that the co-creator of Better Call Saul missed his own show’s wrap party because he his partner Holly had already scheduled a birthday getaway in Palm Springs for that night. It’s that throughout his tenure with both Breaking Bad and Saul), he and his collaborators, (including Saul Peter Gould, their co-creator) were rarely able to plan out stories in advance. As the characters they wrote, they were constantly trapped in corners and had no choice but to find an explosive way out.

But at least there’s no more planning to worry about for this franchise. Gilligan directed and wrote this penultimate episode. Saul episode, which we recapped here, and he says that next week’s series finale will very likely be the conclusion to the entire fictional universe that started with Breaking Bad.

He spoke to him Rolling Stone It took Kim Wexler a long time to find out her fate. The ongoing challenge of reconciling them was also a lengthy one. Saul Use what you know to plot Breaking BadWhy is a show called Better Call Saul Saul Goodman was barely featured in the end.

Peter and you both always claim that you can only see 2 inches in front of you when the show’s plotting is underway. How did you know what was going to happen with Kim at that point?
It’s the same as we have always done. We work out two inches in front of our noses. It could have ended in any direction, but I suspect there was an element of us not wanting to endanger her character. This story had many preordained elements. You can’t kill off Jimmy McGill in his own show, you can’t kill off any character whom we know the fate of from Breaking Bad. Kim was a limitless woman. I guess it just didn’t feel right to kill her off. In truth, that was not something we discussed. We smiled silently, even though people stopped us in the street to ask. “You’re not gonna kill Kim, are you?”Although we let others believe that we would, none of us wanted it to happen. It was all in small steps and fits and starts. This is how she ended up.

It was more difficult in this season’s final season to reconcile what we know with what is happening in the past? Breaking Bad?
I don’t think so. It was very, very difficult in the first and early seasons. But I should say that it had been a couple of years since I’d been in the writers room before this season. I can recall the early days of our endeavor to understand. “Jimmy McGill, where does Saul Goodman come from? We can’t kill him off! He can’t lose an eye!” There’s so many of these strictures that Breaking BadThis is how you should act. But not this season. I mean, it’s always tough. It seemed harder at first. We had plenty time to think of this stuff. Peter Gould might give you a different answer, but that’s how I look back on it.

If you could travel back in time, would you? Breaking Bad Ask your younger self to tell you one thing that would make your life more easy on this show.
Oh man, you’re asking all the big tough ones. Let me think about that. I promise to give you an answer by the end.

We’ve talked before about how you intended to get to Saul Goodman by the end of Season One, and instead you found yourselves liking Jimmy McGill. We got less than one episode of the real Saul and we basically went from Jimmy to Gene Takovic. What made you decide that you wanted to get past the Saul era of television?
It wasn’t so much about wanting. And you’re right. We used to talk about it in the beginning. “Yeah, he’ll be Jimmy for a while, but obviously, you can’t do a bait-and-switch with the audience! You can’t sell them a bill of goods. You’ve gotta give them Saul Goodman.” And damned if we didn’t wind up doing it! It was not our intention to be mischievous or perverse from the beginning. I think it finally dawned on us — but that thing about us only seeing two inches in front of our noses, that really holds true when you’re breaking a story like this. We all know the look of Saul Goodman, and that’s what we came to understand. He was on many episodes of “Saul Goodman” Breaking Bad, so we didn’t need to tell that story again, and we had all this really interesting story. We were fascinated by Jimmy McGill, by what would turn a guy like that, who’s basically a good guy, into a bad guy. We wanted to see Gene Takovic in Omaha so we ran out of time without realizing it. Then we realized that Saul Goodman was the only thing that could go. And that’s the name of the show! For those who have seen it. Better Call Saul and haven’t watched Breaking BadIf you are looking for the perfect Saul Goodman soundtrack, you can find it on iTunes.

Rhea Seehorn will be your last chance to direct her in this role. In a lot of this episode, you’re just letting the camera linger on her face as she’s reacting to things, including that great scene where she breaks down on the airport shuttle bus. Was it any different working with her as this character one last time?
It was amazing! Rhea is a wonderful woman. Rhea is amazing. The camera also loves Rhea as much as me. It was difficult to get a grip on the shots on that moving bus. The two scenes when she’s driving in Florida, and the one where Gene is driving in Omaha in the snow, those were done on a soundstage in a non-moving vehicle with a plate that was burned in. However, the actual rental-car shuttle was actually moving along a loop in Albuquerque’s airport. We set up four cameras, then let them roll. I just sat there trying my best to get as much as possible out of her eyes. It was a joy to watch her. We did two takes. We didn’t even need to. But I’m the anxious type, and I was gonna have more than one take. Although we probably used the second one she was as brilliant and creative as the first. It’s just a pleasure watching her do her thing.

Why would you put Kim and Jesse Pinkman together to make a scene for Jesse Pinkman?
I just love ’em both so much. It’s as simple as that. We do our best to tell these stories naturally. It is just, although it pains me to admit, pleasurable writing and directing a scene such as this. It doesn’t really move the plot forward. In strict, organic storytelling terms, it’s not “necessary.”It was still fun. They are my favorite. I think we all wanted — I can’t remember who came up with the idea — that we wanted to see those two worlds collide. We couldn’t help ourselves.

These episodes will take place after. Breaking BadAfter and before El Camino. These are the chronological ends of the story. Is this the end of this fictional universe? Or could you imagine reliving it?
It is something that I can easily imagine returning to. Selfishly, I’d like to do so, to keep this thing going. But without naming any names, I look around at some of the worlds, the universes, the stories that I love, whether they’re on TV or in the movies. And I think there’s a certain point, and it’s hard to define, where you’ve done too much in the same universe. It’s okay to let it be. There are other universes that are bigger and more flexible. Albuquerque in New Mexico is our universe. It is smaller than some of these worlds, series of movies, and TV shows. The main thing I’m scared of is becoming too much of a one-trick pony. Yes, there is more to this universe than I can do. Perhaps I will someday, even if I fail at the next step. Then I’ll come crawling back. But right now, whether there’s more room to grow or not — and there probably is — I feel like it’s time to do something new.

These shows are basically done. El Camino It has been more than 15 years. How does it feel?
It’s funny. A lot of people have been asking me lately, and it hasn’t really hit me. The end of Breaking BadThe bright line was clear and distinct. It was very emotional to be there on the final day. It was many years ago. It’s been 15 years now, and that was only year six or something like that, and that felt more momentous, more monumental. It’s perhaps not a satisfying answer. Perhaps it hasn’t hit me yet. I think it’s hit Peter, I think it’s hit the writers and the actors. Maybe it’ll be a delayed reaction. I hope it won’t be quite as intense and quite as public as what Kim goes through on that rental-car shuttle. But maybe it’s like the reaction she has, after six years, crying for Howard Hamlin and whatever else she’s crying for — her lost soul. I hope I’m home alone if that happens.

Ok, you said that you would answer the time machine question before proceeding. Do you have any suggestions? Breaking Bad Just to make your life easier Better Call Saul?
Yes. Well, you know, I’ll probably think of a good answer after we hang up. But I think it’s telling that I can’t think of a good answer off the top of my head, even having pondered it for a few minutes here. There are moments where we thought. “Gee, it would be better if this character lived”Oder “It would be better if we could kill this character.”However, none of this was to our advantage, so far as I remember. It’s a challenge: Do you want the Rubik’s Cube to be any easier, if you’re a Rubik’s Cube puzzle-type solver? No, you don’t. Especially in hindsight once you’ve solved it. I don’t really regret anything we did.